SharTech, le 16/07/2014 à 23:10
Je recommande à tous les shaarlieurs anglophones la lecture du commentaire de ce redditeur parce que c'est tout simplement édifiant.
Il dresse un état des lieux très sombre de notre société et le pire, c'est qu'il a raison.
Un texte très dur mais dont la lecture est, à mon sens, indispensable, il ne faut pas se voiler la face.
Et c'est autre chose que du Ploum.
(
Permalink)
HowTommy, le 17/07/2014 à 11:42
Fuck, il a été supprimé :(
Pas possible de le lire...
Y'a pas une copie quelque part ? Ca m'intrigue...
J'ai trouvé ça, mais sans mise en forme :(
Not just America, but all of humanity are endowed, nor partitioned or granted, inalienable rights
I would argue that Americans have accepted this idea that rights are just privileges we get by virtue of living in the United States -- simple legal constructions which become immediately invalid at our borders.
This has enabled the government to deprive people of basic civil liberties under almost any pretext provided you do it overseas somewhere.
If I even argue that rights are, ought to be, or are arguably tied to humans by virtue of being human alone, a chorus of people will come out of the woodwork to criticize that -- not just elites, but people right here on reddit.
I live in Arizona, where a whole bunch of people are all about shredding rights of so-called "illegals," even though that shreds the concept of rights generally by alienating them (I use this terminology deliberately) from people who haven't been born in the right place.
People love the idea that you can immediately rescind unpopular, dangerous, or inconvenient rights of others -- be it firearm ownership, racist or obscene speech, or what have you.
The American way is freedom for me and everything I want to do, but fuck you buddy: the point of politics is to vote people in who will deprive people of rights I don't like. Right and Left.
This is US citizens -- I want to make this clear -- this is people who complain endlessly about their rights, but will expend considerable effort making arguments about why others ought to be deprived of theirs.
It's a disease, and collectively, we're reaping the fruits of this attitude. Monitoring the populace means the populace is the greatest threat But your neighbor might be an ecoterrorist! Or a militia type! Or a Muslim radical! Of course they should be monitored.
It's just that I, personally, should not be monitored. This is war. The world is fundamentally different today and we just can't afford the kind of libertine notions of privacy and freedom crazy civil libertarians are constantly harping on.
Well, we can afford it when it comes to me, I'm a goddamned moral and ethical and upstanding citizen. Just not for other people. If Americans intrinsically desire liberty however nonchalant at times, a functional society shall stern from the will of the people that is a patron for liberty. I do not believe that liberty, fundamentally, is what most Americans want, and this is borne out by a quick census of the muppets they continually elect to office. Invasive spying implies a belief that that spying is necessary by those in power. Again, not just people in power: the dangerous people who I disagree with should be spied upon. Just not me personally. Reality has a Jesus_Ciccone-Penn bias, and if more people would just advocate for what I advocate for, believe what I believe, and adopt my values, living in the US would be like, well, Narnia. One might easily be inclined to believe there is a fascist ideology about those who govern us. I think it's a matter of the fascist ideology of my next door neighbors. The power of elites does not exist in a vacuum. These people in power are handed power by their constituents. For what purpose, for example, anyone would possibly vote for an authoritarian like Dianne Feinstein -- a supposed "Democrat," yet the loudest and most vociferous advocate for the intelligence state I know of, continues to elude me. I won't even go into her endless right wing counterparts. They seek to subvert your mind, suppress freedom, and subvert competition as we witness today. Socialism fails at the very ideology of what rights each of us is entitled to... This is way bigger that socialism. Yes, socialists really believe you can have an expansive government which provides lots of services to working class people, and with it, efficiency, lack of corruption, and lack of brutality, and that's a well-worn subject, but we also have conservatives who seem to be fans of militarization of pretty much everything: our borders, local police forces, and endless military spending, and the surveillance apparatus which accompanies it. Further I am unsure whether there is any possibility of a united front against authoritarianism specifically because unhappy socialists and conservatives cannot find common ground (and I don't believe there is any). Each side believes in its own form of authoritarianism, ostensibly in the name of some greater good -- you can distract socialists from any notions of liberty if you wave equality or a levelling principle in front of them (in the interests of equality, if you pitch it right, a lot (or most) will sell out the rights of individuals in a heartbeat), and likewise conservatives by waving bibles and flags. There are still conservatives writing op-eds against pot legalization or homosexuality, or deriding anyone who opposes war or the military as subversives. That conservatives still have energy left for this is telling. As for libertarians, they are even more at each others throats. Try to get anarchists and free market libertarians to talk each other in anything approaching a civil manner. Because of differences on private property, any discussion of an alliance to end endless war (and the infringements that inevitably come with it, or are a consequence of it), or basically work together in any capacity, is impossible. Even though neither anarchists nor their free market counterparts have any power at all, they argue as if each are their primary enemy. Pure comedy. Down with fascism and the socialism mysticism. Down with the oligarchy. Down with those who subvert free will. The hour is nigh. I agree but the hour is not nigh. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And it will not get better until bellies are literally empty. Until then it's a lot of typed and spoken invective, occupying parks, and writing manifestos. I have barely seen anything change in any substantial way in the entire time I've been alive on this planet. People have forgotten how to disagree and respect each other. Almost anyone you talk to will pride themselves on being capable of exactly this, yet their actions don't seem to reflect it. I see no united front, no effective resistance, and in fact, no hope in the short or medium term. The deja vu I feel watching left-leaning people try to dismiss any criticism of the Obama administration as some kind of Republican plot (generally skipping right to the "you don't like Obama because you're obviously racist" trope) calls to mind the exact same thing Republicans did during the Bush administration. Any hope I may have had for the Left to turn things around, given the eight years they've had control of the executive branch, is long gone. They are rank hypocrites and apologists, just like their republican counterparts. Probably we will see Hillary Clinton as our next president, and you can bet she will be cheered on as she does exactly the same sorts of things Bush or Cheney would have done, by the same people who took to the streets to protest Bush and Cheney doing those same things. Down with fascism and the socialism mysticism. There's a lot of mysticism to go around, and it isn't just socialists and fascists: it is equally present in the reification of the free market, and the worship of capitalism, as if, even taking government patronage out of the equation for a moment, money doesn't corrupt. Horse meat in lasagne, industrial chemicals in Chinese milk, propagandizing for fossil fuels and against science which calls them out, and so on. There are endless examples. (For the record, I support the free market in theory -- in practice, I am in the belly of the beast, and profit and cost-savings are worshipped like religious idols. I wonder how many people today are eating shrimp bought in American grocery stores, which are the product of literal slave labor in places like Thailand. That shrimp sure is cheap. Profitable, affordable, and cheap. And produced by slave labor: that is to say, produced through endless abstracting layers of contracting companies, the end of which is staffed by people who prohibit people from leaving their jobs by pointing firearms at their workers. They get away with this not because of government intervention, but specifically because lack of oversight and the endless abstraction of company contracting to company, contracting to company, obscures it from consumers. I question how many consumers, even knowing this, would care to change their habits. You can't even get working class "wage slaves" to boycott Walmart.) The problem, as far as I can tell: We are corrupt, and we make excuses for our corruption, and generally pull those excuses from our ideology. Good government would seem to be a consequence of good people, and I question whether we are good people. The ugliness and nastiness I hear from mouths daily, and read from peoples keyboards, suggests that we are getting exactly the government you'd expect. One thing we all have in common, and can kumbaya about, is that we all know exactly what the world needs and who the enemies of all things good are: it needs what we want, and the enemies are the people we disagree with and blame for everything else. Reaping what we've sown, chickens coming home to roost, etc. We've built this. We've built it by needlessly divisive rhetoric. We've built it by irrational selfishness. We've built it by making idols over things which ought to be secondary to the human experience. We've built it by corrosive bullshit ideology, which exists across the spectrum. Lastly, we've built it by devaluing human life, or subordinating it to artifice and abstract ideological principles.
(
Permalink)
SharTech, le 17/07/2014 à 11:44
J'ai trouvé une copie et j'ai corrigé le lien dans mon article, sinon tu peux cliquer ici:
http://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/2avbaq/some_lucidity_on_what_is_wrong_with_the_world/cizh5gd(
Permalink)
Chassegnouf, le 17/07/2014 à 12:22
Merci.
Lu.
Mais si quelqu'un veut se fader la traduction pour une plus ample diffusion, je suis preneur du produit fini.
(
Permalink)
SharTech, le 17/07/2014 à 12:30
je peux essayer, mais je reconnais que pour le coup, certaines tournures de phrases sont très difficiles pour moi.
(
Permalink)
Sammy Fisher Jr, le 17/07/2014 à 14:31
Tu nous fait une traduction ? ^^
Lien direct :
http://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/2avbaq/some_lucidity_on_what_is_wrong_with_the_world/cizh5gdEDIT : Tommy pense que l'article a été supprimé ?
http://liens.howtommy.net/?BFtEEgEn voici une copie :
Edit: Thanks for the gold. (I know most people don't want to see this type of message, but there is no other way to say thank you since I don't know who did it and it feels wrong not to say thank you when someone gives you something.)
Not just America, but all of humanity are endowed, nor partitioned or granted, inalienable rights
I would argue that Americans have accepted this idea that rights are just privileges we get by virtue of living in the United States -- simple legal constructions which become immediately invalid at our borders.
This has enabled the government to deprive people of basic civil liberties under almost any pretext provided you do it overseas somewhere.
If I even argue that rights are, ought to be, or are arguably tied to humans by virtue of being human alone, a chorus of people will come out of the woodwork to criticize that -- not just elites, but people right here on reddit. I live in Arizona, where a whole bunch of people are all about shredding rights of so-called "illegals," even though that shreds the concept of rights generally by alienating them (I use this terminology deliberately) from people who haven't been born in the right place. People love the idea that you can immediately rescind unpopular, dangerous, or inconvenient rights of others -- be it firearm ownership, racist or obscene speech, or what have you.
The American way is freedom for me and everything I want to do, but fuck you buddy: the point of politics is to vote people in who will deprive people of rights I don't like. Right and Left. This is US citizens -- I want to make this clear -- this is people who complain endlessly about their rights, but will expend considerable effort making arguments about why others ought to be deprived of theirs. It's a disease, and collectively, we're reaping the fruits of this attitude.
Monitoring the populace means the populace is the greatest threat
But your neighbor might be an ecoterrorist! Or a militia type! Or a Muslim radical! Of course they should be monitored. It's just that I, personally, should not be monitored. This is war. The world is fundamentally different today and we just can't afford the kind of libertine notions of privacy and freedom crazy civil libertarians are constantly harping on. Well, we can afford it when it comes to me, I'm a goddamned moral and ethical and upstanding citizen. Just not for other people.
If Americans intrinsically desire liberty however nonchalant at times, a functional society shall stern from the will of the people that is a patron for liberty.
I do not believe that liberty, fundamentally, is what most Americans want, and this is borne out by a quick census of the muppets they continually elect to office.
Invasive spying implies a belief that that spying is necessary by those in power.
Again, not just people in power: the dangerous people who I disagree with should be spied upon. Just not me personally. Reality has a Jesus_Ciccone-Penn bias, and if more people would just advocate for what I advocate for, believe what I believe, and adopt my values, living in the US would be like, well, Narnia.
One might easily be inclined to believe there is a fascist ideology about those who govern us.
I think it's a matter of the fascist ideology of my next door neighbors. The power of elites does not exist in a vacuum. These people in power are handed power by their constituents. For what purpose, for example, anyone would possibly vote for an authoritarian like Dianne Feinstein -- a supposed "Democrat," yet the loudest and most vociferous advocate for the intelligence state I know of, continues to elude me. I won't even go into her endless right wing counterparts.
They seek to subvert your mind, suppress freedom, and subvert competition as we witness today. Socialism fails at the very ideology of what rights each of us is entitled to...
This is way bigger that socialism. Yes, socialists really believe you can have an expansive government which provides lots of services to working class people, and with it, efficiency, lack of corruption, and lack of brutality, and that's a well-worn subject, but we also have conservatives who seem to be fans of militarization of pretty much everything: our borders, local police forces, and endless military spending, and the surveillance apparatus which accompanies it.
Further I am unsure whether there is any possibility of a united front against authoritarianism specifically because unhappy socialists and conservatives cannot find common ground (and I don't believe there is any). Each side believes in its own form of authoritarianism, ostensibly in the name of some greater good -- you can distract socialists from any notions of liberty if you wave equality or a levelling principle in front of them (in the interests of equality, if you pitch it right, a lot (or most) will sell out the rights of individuals in a heartbeat), and likewise conservatives by waving bibles and flags. There are still conservatives writing op-eds against pot legalization or homosexuality, or deriding anyone who opposes war or the military as subversives. That conservatives still have energy left for this is telling.
As for libertarians, they are even more at each others throats. Try to get anarchists and free market libertarians to talk each other in anything approaching a civil manner. Because of differences on private property, any discussion of an alliance to end endless war (and the infringements that inevitably come with it, or are a consequence of it), or basically work together in any capacity, is impossible. Even though neither anarchists nor their free market counterparts have any power at all, they argue as if each are their primary enemy. Pure comedy.
Down with fascism and the socialism mysticism. Down with the oligarchy. Down with those who subvert free will.
The hour is nigh.
I agree but the hour is not nigh. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And it will not get better until bellies are literally empty. Until then it's a lot of typed and spoken invective, occupying parks, and writing manifestos.
I have barely seen anything change in any substantial way in the entire time I've been alive on this planet.
People have forgotten how to disagree and respect each other. Almost anyone you talk to will pride themselves on being capable of exactly this, yet their actions don't seem to reflect it.
I see no united front, no effective resistance, and in fact, no hope in the short or medium term. The deja vu I feel watching left-leaning people try to dismiss any criticism of the Obama administration as some kind of Republican plot (generally skipping right to the "you don't like Obama because you're obviously racist" trope) calls to mind the exact same thing Republicans did during the Bush administration. Any hope I may have had for the Left to turn things around, given the eight years they've had control of the executive branch, is long gone. They are rank hypocrites and apologists, just like their republican counterparts.
Probably we will see Hillary Clinton as our next president, and you can bet she will be cheered on as she does exactly the same sorts of things Bush or Cheney would have done, by the same people who took to the streets to protest Bush and Cheney doing those same things.
Down with fascism and the socialism mysticism.
There's a lot of mysticism to go around, and it isn't just socialists and fascists: it is equally present in the reification of the free market, and the worship of capitalism, as if, even taking government patronage out of the equation for a moment, money doesn't corrupt. Horse meat in lasagne, industrial chemicals in Chinese milk, propagandizing for fossil fuels and against science which calls them out, and so on. There are endless examples. (For the record, I support the free market in theory -- in practice, I am in the belly of the beast, and profit and cost-savings are worshipped like religious idols. I wonder how many people today are eating shrimp bought in American grocery stores, which are the product of literal slave labor in places like Thailand. That shrimp sure is cheap. Profitable, affordable, and cheap. And produced by slave labor: that is to say, produced through endless abstracting layers of contracting companies, the end of which is staffed by people who prohibit people from leaving their jobs by pointing firearms at their workers. They get away with this not because of government intervention, but specifically because lack of oversight and the endless abstraction of company contracting to company, contracting to company, obscures it from consumers. I question how many consumers, even knowing this, would care to change their habits. You can't even get working class "wage slaves" to boycott Walmart.)
The problem, as far as I can tell:
We are corrupt, and we make excuses for our corruption, and generally pull those excuses from our ideology. Good government would seem to be a consequence of good people, and I question whether we are good people. The ugliness and nastiness I hear from mouths daily, and read from peoples keyboards, suggests that we are getting exactly the government you'd expect.
One thing we all have in common, and can kumbaya about, is that we all know exactly what the world needs and who the enemies of all things good are: it needs what we want, and the enemies are the people we disagree with and blame for everything else.
Reaping what we've sown, chickens coming home to roost, etc. We've built this. We've built it by needlessly divisive rhetoric. We've built it by irrational selfishness. We've built it by making idols over things which ought to be secondary to the human experience. We've built it by corrosive bullshit ideology, which exists across the spectrum. Lastly, we've built it by devaluing human life, or subordinating it to artifice and abstract ideological principles.
(
Permalink)
HowTommy, le 17/07/2014 à 17:18
Et si on traduisait ça tous ensemble via Framapad ? Chacun prend un morceau et essaye de faire la meilleure traduction possible ? J'ai commencé par le début, et c'est pas si pire :) (Mon niveau d'anglais est à améliorer, mais son discours est loin d'être simple à traduire, n'hésitez pas à améliorer si vous le sentez...)
http://lite4.framapad.org/p/mVPA5ToYGB(
Permalink)
Chassegnouf, le 17/07/2014 à 18:01
Moi je veux bien traduire tous les "I" en "je", qui fait le reste ^^ ?
(
Permalink)
hoa, le 18/07/2014 à 11:00
Oh bah zut, j'avais fait une traduction avant de voir ça. C'est intéressant de comparer ceci dit.
La version collective est bien meilleure que la mienne. :)
Ma tentative :
https://aryo.fr/2014/07/un-peu-de-lucidite-sur-notre-monde/La version collective :
http://lite4.framapad.org/p/mVPA5ToYGB(
Permalink)
